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	<title>Comments on: Northwest Windpower: Problems Aplenty</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.masterresource.org/2010/07/northwest-windpower-problems/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2010/07/northwest-windpower-problems/</link>
	<description>A free-market energy blog</description>
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		<title>By: Willem Post</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2010/07/northwest-windpower-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-20343</link>
		<dc:creator>Willem Post</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 21:34:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masterresource.org/?p=11063#comment-20343</guid>
		<description>Here are a few articles that quantify CO2 reductions due to wind energy on the grids of  Ireland, Colorado and Texas. Because so few grids publish 1/4-hour and 1- hour grid operations data, CO2 reductions due to wind energy are usually estimated. 

The below studies ARE based on 1/4-hour and 1-hour data published by grid operators.

http://theenergycollective.com/willem-post/57905/wind-power-and-co2-emissions
http://theenergycollective.com/willem-post/64492/wind-energy-reduces-co2-emissions-few-percent</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here are a few articles that quantify CO2 reductions due to wind energy on the grids of  Ireland, Colorado and Texas. Because so few grids publish 1/4-hour and 1- hour grid operations data, CO2 reductions due to wind energy are usually estimated. </p>
<p>The below studies ARE based on 1/4-hour and 1-hour data published by grid operators.</p>
<p><a href="http://theenergycollective.com/willem-post/57905/wind-power-and-co2-emissions" rel="nofollow">http://theenergycollective.com/willem-post/57905/wind-power-and-co2-emissions</a><br />
<a href="http://theenergycollective.com/willem-post/64492/wind-energy-reduces-co2-emissions-few-percent" rel="nofollow">http://theenergycollective.com/willem-post/64492/wind-energy-reduces-co2-emissions-few-percent</a></p>
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		<title>By: Industrial wind is a business with profit as its goal! &#124; Allegheny Treasures</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2010/07/northwest-windpower-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-19894</link>
		<dc:creator>Industrial wind is a business with profit as its goal! &#124; Allegheny Treasures</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jan 2012 19:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masterresource.org/?p=11063#comment-19894</guid>
		<description>[...] Emissions will not be reduced as a result of industrial wind.  When asked if wind power was reducing carbon emissions, Deb Malin, a Bonneville Power Authority Representative, answered, “No. They are, in fact, creating emissions.” [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Emissions will not be reduced as a result of industrial wind.  When asked if wind power was reducing carbon emissions, Deb Malin, a Bonneville Power Authority Representative, answered, “No. They are, in fact, creating emissions.” [...]</p>
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		<title>By: To borrow from the late, great Edwin Starr: &#8220;Wind, huh, yeah, What is it good for? Absolutely nothing! Uh-huh!&#8221; &#124; Allegheny Treasures</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2010/07/northwest-windpower-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-16702</link>
		<dc:creator>To borrow from the late, great Edwin Starr: &#8220;Wind, huh, yeah, What is it good for? Absolutely nothing! Uh-huh!&#8221; &#124; Allegheny Treasures</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Apr 2011 18:31:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masterresource.org/?p=11063#comment-16702</guid>
		<description>[...] Even the last half of Mr. Maisano&#8217;s statement which claims that PJM will utilize wind &#8220;as a way of improving the emissions profile&#8221; doesn&#8217;t seem to play out at Bonneville.  BPA spokesperson Deb Malin, when asked if wind power was reducing carbon emissions, answered, “No. They are, in fact, creating emissions.” [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Even the last half of Mr. Maisano&#8217;s statement which claims that PJM will utilize wind &#8220;as a way of improving the emissions profile&#8221; doesn&#8217;t seem to play out at Bonneville.  BPA spokesperson Deb Malin, when asked if wind power was reducing carbon emissions, answered, “No. They are, in fact, creating emissions.” [...]</p>
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		<title>By: F.Jahedfar</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2010/07/northwest-windpower-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-13689</link>
		<dc:creator>F.Jahedfar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Oct 2010 16:28:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masterresource.org/?p=11063#comment-13689</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this site</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this site</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Chaffee</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2010/07/northwest-windpower-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-13324</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Chaffee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Sep 2010 20:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masterresource.org/?p=11063#comment-13324</guid>
		<description>I don&#039; claim that using wind energy to pump water will mitigate other problems aside from avoiding the grid instability caused  by tying wind turbines directly to the grid (07.23.10 9:15 pm. comment 19). A better solution might be to discontinue the subsidies that that wind energy industry receives.  They seem to expect others to clean up the mess that they make in spite of the subsidies that they receive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217; claim that using wind energy to pump water will mitigate other problems aside from avoiding the grid instability caused  by tying wind turbines directly to the grid (07.23.10 9:15 pm. comment 19). A better solution might be to discontinue the subsidies that that wind energy industry receives.  They seem to expect others to clean up the mess that they make in spite of the subsidies that they receive.</p>
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		<title>By: Clothcap</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2010/07/northwest-windpower-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-12625</link>
		<dc:creator>Clothcap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Aug 2010 22:41:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masterresource.org/?p=11063#comment-12625</guid>
		<description>Note for BPA, how soon before the end user/tax payer is asked to pay for the replacement of presently installed and will be installed wind turbines with the currently available tech of less inefficient parallel vaned turbines? 
How will they be disposed of?
Thanks for the observations and conclusions Mr Lowe. 
Thanks to your commenters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note for BPA, how soon before the end user/tax payer is asked to pay for the replacement of presently installed and will be installed wind turbines with the currently available tech of less inefficient parallel vaned turbines?<br />
How will they be disposed of?<br />
Thanks for the observations and conclusions Mr Lowe.<br />
Thanks to your commenters.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Boone</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2010/07/northwest-windpower-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-12243</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Boone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 15:00:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masterresource.org/?p=11063#comment-12243</guid>
		<description>Just to follow on Kent Hawkin&#039;s point about the amount of wind shadowing generation required to enable wind volatility--in this case, throughout the entire range of BPA&#039;s installed wind capacity of 2780MW. What must happen when the aggregate wind generation is virtually nothing, as happens occasionally? What must infill the difference between the 2790MW of installed wind on the system and the times that the actual wind generation is only 1000MW, which happens routinely? With an aggregate annual capacity factor of little more than 25%, the average annual wind contribution is about 700MW. About 60% of the time, the aggregate wind is producing less than 700MW. And about 10% of the time, particularly at peak demand times, it is producing virtually nothing. Given these realities, 850MW of hydro cannot possibly be all the wind following generation alloted. Moreover, whatever is used to shadow wind at any  time must be performing at a highly dynamic pace, increasing its workload significantly--in ways that must increase maintenance costs and likely decrease the life span of the equipment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to follow on Kent Hawkin&#8217;s point about the amount of wind shadowing generation required to enable wind volatility&#8211;in this case, throughout the entire range of BPA&#8217;s installed wind capacity of 2780MW. What must happen when the aggregate wind generation is virtually nothing, as happens occasionally? What must infill the difference between the 2790MW of installed wind on the system and the times that the actual wind generation is only 1000MW, which happens routinely? With an aggregate annual capacity factor of little more than 25%, the average annual wind contribution is about 700MW. About 60% of the time, the aggregate wind is producing less than 700MW. And about 10% of the time, particularly at peak demand times, it is producing virtually nothing. Given these realities, 850MW of hydro cannot possibly be all the wind following generation alloted. Moreover, whatever is used to shadow wind at any  time must be performing at a highly dynamic pace, increasing its workload significantly&#8211;in ways that must increase maintenance costs and likely decrease the life span of the equipment.</p>
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		<title>By: Donald Hertzmark</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2010/07/northwest-windpower-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-12242</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald Hertzmark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 14:02:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masterresource.org/?p=11063#comment-12242</guid>
		<description>When Kent Hawkins and I wrote the two posts on NW wind integration we found that the hydro shadowing could work only in the two shoulder seasons, Spring and Fall, when demand is lower and/or the dams are full.  The true system peaks are in Summer and Winter, when hydro output is reduced and the pool&#039;s gas generators work at a higher pace.  Accordingly, wind will increase emissions in the two high seasons and will be emissions neutral in the shoulders.

On the reserves question the wind generators are getting a true bargain at $1.29/kw-month.  PJM&#039;s capacity auctions for this year established prices of roughly $3.25/kw-month.  Most other pools were higher, some more than twice the PJM figure.

Finally, price collapses in spot markets have been common in NW Europe when the wind roars on the North Sea.  With the exception of Norway with its enormous hydro capacity, there is simply no way to buffer the changes in wind output in Germany.  However, prices to consumers do not reflect such fluctuations and industrial customers or distribution companies cannot sign contracts for firm delivery of wind energy.

It is not clear that wind integration has supplied any useful electrical energy to Germany in the past several years.  We will have a post on this very subject shortly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When Kent Hawkins and I wrote the two posts on NW wind integration we found that the hydro shadowing could work only in the two shoulder seasons, Spring and Fall, when demand is lower and/or the dams are full.  The true system peaks are in Summer and Winter, when hydro output is reduced and the pool&#8217;s gas generators work at a higher pace.  Accordingly, wind will increase emissions in the two high seasons and will be emissions neutral in the shoulders.</p>
<p>On the reserves question the wind generators are getting a true bargain at $1.29/kw-month.  PJM&#8217;s capacity auctions for this year established prices of roughly $3.25/kw-month.  Most other pools were higher, some more than twice the PJM figure.</p>
<p>Finally, price collapses in spot markets have been common in NW Europe when the wind roars on the North Sea.  With the exception of Norway with its enormous hydro capacity, there is simply no way to buffer the changes in wind output in Germany.  However, prices to consumers do not reflect such fluctuations and industrial customers or distribution companies cannot sign contracts for firm delivery of wind energy.</p>
<p>It is not clear that wind integration has supplied any useful electrical energy to Germany in the past several years.  We will have a post on this very subject shortly.</p>
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		<title>By: Kent Hawkins</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2010/07/northwest-windpower-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-12241</link>
		<dc:creator>Kent Hawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:58:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masterresource.org/?p=11063#comment-12241</guid>
		<description>A quick look at some of the comments on this post illustrates the lack of comprehensive understanding of the complexity of this subject. This is especially the case of those from the BPA representatives. Particularly revealing is some of the language used by them – exciting engineering challenges, huge strides in new grid techniques and improved forecasting helping. Also, why are the comments of these two BPA representatives identical? 

Here are two previous posts on MasterResource that illustrate the level of complexity involved – http://www.masterresource.org/2010/01/how-many-households-can-a-large-wind-project-serve-lessons-from-texas-and-the-uk-part-1-of-2/  , and http://www.masterresource.org/2010/01/how-many-households-can-a-large-wind-project-serve-lessons-from-texas-and-the-uk-part-2-of-2/ .

The comment about improved forecasting is also questionable. It is difficult enough to forecast day-ahead weather on an hourly basis, let alone specific local wind conditions. Even if forecasting was perfect, this would not remove the need for other generation to balance the random and often large variations on a sub-hour basis. Even a major wind proponent, Gross, acknowledges this and maintains that wind balancing needs are separate and addition to normal reserves. Gross does suggest that this does not introduce significant concerns but admits that the studies to properly evaluate this need to be conducted.

I will not add to the comments of Jon Boone, Don Hertzmark and Tom Tanton, who have pointed out some of the realities involved, for example, important errors in understanding the costs.

The claim that ”BPA does not back wind megawatt for megawatt. For the more than 2,800 megawatts of wind connected to our transmission system, we have set aside about 850 megawatts of clean hydro capacity to produce electricity if scheduled wind power doesn’t materialize” requires comment. 

First of all this, comment demonstrates the misunderstanding that back-up is required only when wind does not materialize. It fails to show any appreciation of what happens when wind does materialize, and has to be balanced on a very short-term basis (minutes) on an ongoing basis. In this case what the BPA representatives are saying is that this is like balancing short-term variances in load with a capacity of only 30% of the variances. The often relied upon reply that geographic dispersion improves wind reliability has been shown to be not valid.

On the subject of wind balancing requirements, there is sufficient experience in Germany that wind balancing capacity in the order of 90-95% on a statistical basis over a year is required (E.ON Netz). Of course this statistical averaging is for system wide planning considerations. What must be taken into account in real time (the world we live in) include (1) grid limitations, and (2) wind variation over most if not all of the total wind capacity. Further, deNet (a consortium of 100 German research institutions and services providers) acknowledges this as well, based on the dena grid study.

We need full, transparent information on the behavior of the generation means within a specific grid structure as a result of the presence of wind, especially as the wind penetrations increase.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A quick look at some of the comments on this post illustrates the lack of comprehensive understanding of the complexity of this subject. This is especially the case of those from the BPA representatives. Particularly revealing is some of the language used by them – exciting engineering challenges, huge strides in new grid techniques and improved forecasting helping. Also, why are the comments of these two BPA representatives identical? </p>
<p>Here are two previous posts on MasterResource that illustrate the level of complexity involved – <a href="http://www.masterresource.org/2010/01/how-many-households-can-a-large-wind-project-serve-lessons-from-texas-and-the-uk-part-1-of-2/" rel="nofollow">http://www.masterresource.org/2010/01/how-many-households-can-a-large-wind-project-serve-lessons-from-texas-and-the-uk-part-1-of-2/</a>  , and <a href="http://www.masterresource.org/2010/01/how-many-households-can-a-large-wind-project-serve-lessons-from-texas-and-the-uk-part-2-of-2/" rel="nofollow">http://www.masterresource.org/2010/01/how-many-households-can-a-large-wind-project-serve-lessons-from-texas-and-the-uk-part-2-of-2/</a> .</p>
<p>The comment about improved forecasting is also questionable. It is difficult enough to forecast day-ahead weather on an hourly basis, let alone specific local wind conditions. Even if forecasting was perfect, this would not remove the need for other generation to balance the random and often large variations on a sub-hour basis. Even a major wind proponent, Gross, acknowledges this and maintains that wind balancing needs are separate and addition to normal reserves. Gross does suggest that this does not introduce significant concerns but admits that the studies to properly evaluate this need to be conducted.</p>
<p>I will not add to the comments of Jon Boone, Don Hertzmark and Tom Tanton, who have pointed out some of the realities involved, for example, important errors in understanding the costs.</p>
<p>The claim that ”BPA does not back wind megawatt for megawatt. For the more than 2,800 megawatts of wind connected to our transmission system, we have set aside about 850 megawatts of clean hydro capacity to produce electricity if scheduled wind power doesn’t materialize” requires comment. </p>
<p>First of all this, comment demonstrates the misunderstanding that back-up is required only when wind does not materialize. It fails to show any appreciation of what happens when wind does materialize, and has to be balanced on a very short-term basis (minutes) on an ongoing basis. In this case what the BPA representatives are saying is that this is like balancing short-term variances in load with a capacity of only 30% of the variances. The often relied upon reply that geographic dispersion improves wind reliability has been shown to be not valid.</p>
<p>On the subject of wind balancing requirements, there is sufficient experience in Germany that wind balancing capacity in the order of 90-95% on a statistical basis over a year is required (E.ON Netz). Of course this statistical averaging is for system wide planning considerations. What must be taken into account in real time (the world we live in) include (1) grid limitations, and (2) wind variation over most if not all of the total wind capacity. Further, deNet (a consortium of 100 German research institutions and services providers) acknowledges this as well, based on the dena grid study.</p>
<p>We need full, transparent information on the behavior of the generation means within a specific grid structure as a result of the presence of wind, especially as the wind penetrations increase.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Tanton</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2010/07/northwest-windpower-problems/comment-page-1/#comment-12233</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Tanton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jul 2010 22:10:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masterresource.org/?p=11063#comment-12233</guid>
		<description>Tim G.  I dount that any spot price reduction makes up for the 2 cent PTC; generally volatility in spot prices is much less than that. Combine that with increased costs for balancing (on 15 minute increments or less) and it is certainly not clear tha spot reductions make up any difference, and in fact can lead to spot increases (e.g. for ancillary services or otherwise.) Keep in mind as well that spot prices are only a part of overall costs. In large part, intermittent wind simply shifts cost to other units called upon to provide service (wind costs go down, but others&#039; cost increase and are not compensate by the wind generator causing the increase.) Each grid is unique wrt needs at any instant; case specific analysis is needed but seldom provided. As far as &quot;who benefits&quot; I believe you ot only have it backwards (as utilities pass through costs, and customers do ot benefit from higher costs which are passed through) you invert the regulatory compact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim G.  I dount that any spot price reduction makes up for the 2 cent PTC; generally volatility in spot prices is much less than that. Combine that with increased costs for balancing (on 15 minute increments or less) and it is certainly not clear tha spot reductions make up any difference, and in fact can lead to spot increases (e.g. for ancillary services or otherwise.) Keep in mind as well that spot prices are only a part of overall costs. In large part, intermittent wind simply shifts cost to other units called upon to provide service (wind costs go down, but others&#8217; cost increase and are not compensate by the wind generator causing the increase.) Each grid is unique wrt needs at any instant; case specific analysis is needed but seldom provided. As far as &#8220;who benefits&#8221; I believe you ot only have it backwards (as utilities pass through costs, and customers do ot benefit from higher costs which are passed through) you invert the regulatory compact.</p>
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