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	<title>Comments on: Bootleggers and Baptists Tackle (Carbon) Prohibition</title>
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	<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2010/01/bootleggers-and-baptists-tackle-carbon-prohibition/</link>
	<description>A free-market energy blog</description>
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		<title>By: Jerry Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2010/01/bootleggers-and-baptists-tackle-carbon-prohibition/comment-page-1/#comment-4222</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:49:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://masterresource.org/?p=438#comment-4222</guid>
		<description>There is no good economic argument for a progressive tax on pollutants.   In fact, there is a very good argument against it; it disadvantages large economic actors relative to smaller economic actors and thus threatens to reduce overall economic efficiency.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no good economic argument for a progressive tax on pollutants.   In fact, there is a very good argument against it; it disadvantages large economic actors relative to smaller economic actors and thus threatens to reduce overall economic efficiency.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2010/01/bootleggers-and-baptists-tackle-carbon-prohibition/comment-page-1/#comment-4220</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:45:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://masterresource.org/?p=438#comment-4220</guid>
		<description>A progressive tax on pollutants (SO2, CO2, etc.) (though I don&#039;t think CO2 is a pollutant) could be applied equally on new and old plants (progressive in the sense that the tax increases at higher brackets of emissions, like income tax).  Thus, really old and highly polluting plants would be shutdown, some would make minor improvements to stay in business, and newer, efficient plants keep doing their own thing.  

Here&#039;s the key about the whole debate about cap and trade (and health care):  it&#039;s all about redistributing wealth without using an explicit tax.  Obama and liberal dems would be viewed in a better light if they were honest with the american people if they proposed an open tax for either policy (CO2 reductions and health care).  Of course, it likely won&#039;t pass, but at least the would be intellectually honest about what they are doing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A progressive tax on pollutants (SO2, CO2, etc.) (though I don&#8217;t think CO2 is a pollutant) could be applied equally on new and old plants (progressive in the sense that the tax increases at higher brackets of emissions, like income tax).  Thus, really old and highly polluting plants would be shutdown, some would make minor improvements to stay in business, and newer, efficient plants keep doing their own thing.  </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the key about the whole debate about cap and trade (and health care):  it&#8217;s all about redistributing wealth without using an explicit tax.  Obama and liberal dems would be viewed in a better light if they were honest with the american people if they proposed an open tax for either policy (CO2 reductions and health care).  Of course, it likely won&#8217;t pass, but at least the would be intellectually honest about what they are doing.</p>
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		<title>By: ClimateTF</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2010/01/bootleggers-and-baptists-tackle-carbon-prohibition/comment-page-1/#comment-4201</link>
		<dc:creator>ClimateTF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:35:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://masterresource.org/?p=438#comment-4201</guid>
		<description>Certainly, we need climate change legislation.  But we need to adopt fresh perspectives, forge new partnerships, and create an emissions policy that will be seen as balanced and workable. We need a &quot;#GreenPlanB&quot;.   Read more here: http://www.climatetaskforce.org/2010/01/25/take-action-support-a-%e2%80%9cplan-b%e2%80%9d-for-climate-policy-today/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Certainly, we need climate change legislation.  But we need to adopt fresh perspectives, forge new partnerships, and create an emissions policy that will be seen as balanced and workable. We need a &#8220;#GreenPlanB&#8221;.   Read more here: <a href="http://www.climatetaskforce.org/2010/01/25/take-action-support-a-%e2%80%9cplan-b%e2%80%9d-for-climate-policy-today/" rel="nofollow">http://www.climatetaskforce.org/2010/01/25/take-action-support-a-%e2%80%9cplan-b%e2%80%9d-for-climate-policy-today/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2010/01/bootleggers-and-baptists-tackle-carbon-prohibition/comment-page-1/#comment-4173</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:55:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://masterresource.org/?p=438#comment-4173</guid>
		<description>NASA is under scrutiny:
http://climateaudit.org/2010/01/23/nasa-hide-this-after-jim-checks-it/#comment-217428

The CRU is under scrutiny:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100023449/wow-uk-parliamentary-investigation-into-climategate-may-not-be-a-whitewash/

There are efficient ways to approach the debunking of this fraud. The best ones I&#039;ve seen are here:
http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/2010/01/cold_wars_1.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NASA is under scrutiny:<br />
<a href="http://climateaudit.org/2010/01/23/nasa-hide-this-after-jim-checks-it/#comment-217428" rel="nofollow">http://climateaudit.org/2010/01/23/nasa-hide-this-after-jim-checks-it/#comment-217428</a></p>
<p>The CRU is under scrutiny:<br />
<a href="http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100023449/wow-uk-parliamentary-investigation-into-climategate-may-not-be-a-whitewash/" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100023449/wow-uk-parliamentary-investigation-into-climategate-may-not-be-a-whitewash/</a></p>
<p>There are efficient ways to approach the debunking of this fraud. The best ones I&#8217;ve seen are here:<br />
<a href="http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/2010/01/cold_wars_1.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/2010/01/cold_wars_1.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ed Reid</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2010/01/bootleggers-and-baptists-tackle-carbon-prohibition/comment-page-1/#comment-4170</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Reid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:43:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://masterresource.org/?p=438#comment-4170</guid>
		<description>It is interesting to contemplate the developments of the past year in this context.  

We have watched through a keyhole as two &quot;sausages&quot; were made by bootlegger-influenced baptists. Each of these sausages bears some fleeting resemblance to both cap &amp; trade and a carbon tax, combined with an unhealthy dose of &quot;winner picking&quot; and income redistribution.

We have watched the globe cool, though the &quot;settled science&quot; remained &quot;settled&quot;, while many of the scientists became quite unsettled as the result of the release of details regarding their activities.

We have seen the global community expose its various, disparate elements (achievers, aspirants and beggars) for all to see during a massive snowstorm in Copenhagen.

Finally, as I have pointed out here previously, we have seen the &quot;Three Legged Stool&quot; of anthropogenic global climate change exposed for those capable of seeing it without any assistance from the bootleggers, the baptists or the media.

Leg 1: Zero carbon emissions (&quot;350&quot;, Gavin Schmidt)
Leg 2: Zero animal husbandry (Ban Ki Moon)
Leg 3: Population Controls (John Holdren, Cass Sunstein)
Seat: World Government (EU President, early Copenhagen draft)

The stool above would arguably have been the most expensive piece of truly ugly furniture in the history of the world, had it been assembled.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is interesting to contemplate the developments of the past year in this context.  </p>
<p>We have watched through a keyhole as two &#8220;sausages&#8221; were made by bootlegger-influenced baptists. Each of these sausages bears some fleeting resemblance to both cap &amp; trade and a carbon tax, combined with an unhealthy dose of &#8220;winner picking&#8221; and income redistribution.</p>
<p>We have watched the globe cool, though the &#8220;settled science&#8221; remained &#8220;settled&#8221;, while many of the scientists became quite unsettled as the result of the release of details regarding their activities.</p>
<p>We have seen the global community expose its various, disparate elements (achievers, aspirants and beggars) for all to see during a massive snowstorm in Copenhagen.</p>
<p>Finally, as I have pointed out here previously, we have seen the &#8220;Three Legged Stool&#8221; of anthropogenic global climate change exposed for those capable of seeing it without any assistance from the bootleggers, the baptists or the media.</p>
<p>Leg 1: Zero carbon emissions (&#8220;350&#8243;, Gavin Schmidt)<br />
Leg 2: Zero animal husbandry (Ban Ki Moon)<br />
Leg 3: Population Controls (John Holdren, Cass Sunstein)<br />
Seat: World Government (EU President, early Copenhagen draft)</p>
<p>The stool above would arguably have been the most expensive piece of truly ugly furniture in the history of the world, had it been assembled.</p>
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		<title>By: The Waxman-Markey Gravy Train (Part II): Specific Winners in the Electric Industry &#8212; MasterResource</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2010/01/bootleggers-and-baptists-tackle-carbon-prohibition/comment-page-1/#comment-224</link>
		<dc:creator>The Waxman-Markey Gravy Train (Part II): Specific Winners in the Electric Industry &#8212; MasterResource</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:25:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://masterresource.org/?p=438#comment-224</guid>
		<description>[...] change yet privately see this as the greatest money-making opportunity of their lifetimes. The Bootleggers and Baptist model of government intervention is in clear evidence. Adam Smith must be turning over in his [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] change yet privately see this as the greatest money-making opportunity of their lifetimes. The Bootleggers and Baptist model of government intervention is in clear evidence. Adam Smith must be turning over in his [...]</p>
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		<title>By: TokyoTom</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2010/01/bootleggers-and-baptists-tackle-carbon-prohibition/comment-page-1/#comment-223</link>
		<dc:creator>TokyoTom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Feb 2009 04:23:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://masterresource.org/?p=438#comment-223</guid>
		<description>Jerry, the points you make are precisely those made by those who favor carbon taxes over cap and trade.   Given that cap and trade is so much worse that a carbon tax, I would think that libertarians and conservatives would be trying to build a coalition in that direction.  Are such efforts underway?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jerry, the points you make are precisely those made by those who favor carbon taxes over cap and trade.   Given that cap and trade is so much worse that a carbon tax, I would think that libertarians and conservatives would be trying to build a coalition in that direction.  Are such efforts underway?</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2010/01/bootleggers-and-baptists-tackle-carbon-prohibition/comment-page-1/#comment-222</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 11:54:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://masterresource.org/?p=438#comment-222</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t say I was in favor of shutting down a majority of coal-fired power plants by x date.  I said that standards should apply without favor.  The old-source/new-source distinction was in the in 1970 Clean Air Act for a reason - it was necessary to bring the coal industry along and thus get the bill passed.  Without it, it&#039;s not clear to me that the bill passes.  If the Congress had the votes to impose new source standards on existing facilities, there&#039;s a pretty good chance that it would have done so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t say I was in favor of shutting down a majority of coal-fired power plants by x date.  I said that standards should apply without favor.  The old-source/new-source distinction was in the in 1970 Clean Air Act for a reason &#8211; it was necessary to bring the coal industry along and thus get the bill passed.  Without it, it&#8217;s not clear to me that the bill passes.  If the Congress had the votes to impose new source standards on existing facilities, there&#8217;s a pretty good chance that it would have done so.</p>
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		<title>By: jae</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2010/01/bootleggers-and-baptists-tackle-carbon-prohibition/comment-page-1/#comment-221</link>
		<dc:creator>jae</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 03:25:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://masterresource.org/?p=438#comment-221</guid>
		<description>Jerry, thanks for taking time to take me on.  But I don&#039;t agree.  If you have been in an industrial situation where these things have happened, I think you would change your opinion, at least a little.  Perhaps you are an idealist, seeing everything as black and white.  You simply don&#039;t shut down the majority of all, say, coal-fired electrical generating plants on xx date, if they don&#039;t conform to technology that was not available when they were built.  You, sir, are a hopeless idealist, and we need fewer of you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jerry, thanks for taking time to take me on.  But I don&#8217;t agree.  If you have been in an industrial situation where these things have happened, I think you would change your opinion, at least a little.  Perhaps you are an idealist, seeing everything as black and white.  You simply don&#8217;t shut down the majority of all, say, coal-fired electrical generating plants on xx date, if they don&#8217;t conform to technology that was not available when they were built.  You, sir, are a hopeless idealist, and we need fewer of you.</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2010/01/bootleggers-and-baptists-tackle-carbon-prohibition/comment-page-1/#comment-220</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 14:39:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://masterresource.org/?p=438#comment-220</guid>
		<description>Jae:

The old-source/new-source distinction is unwise because it gravely distorts the market and creates rampant inefficiency.   A unit of air emissions from an old coal-fired power plant has the same environmental and human health impact as a unit of air emissions from a new coal-fired power plant.  What possible justification is there to treat those emissions differrently from a regulatory perspective?  Doing so leads to deep problems.

First, it imposes competitive disadvantages on new entrants which in  turn leads to the the cartelization of the wholesale power business.   The new-source/old-source standards are in effect a massive wealth transfer to coal-fired power plants built before 1970 and the wealth in question comes ultimately from ratepayers, who pay higher prices as a consequence of artificially restricting competition and encouraging producer inefficiency (see below).

Second, it encourages overall inefficiency in power production given the artificial advantages conferred to old plants relative to new, more efficient plants.  How many industries outside of the power industry find that the most profitable facilities are those with 40+ year-old technology?  Obviously, profit incentives like this distort investment flows in myriad, unproductive ways.

Third, upgrading those plants threatens to turn &quot;old sources&quot; into &quot;new sources&quot; for regulatory purposes.  This discourages otherwise economically sensible investments that would surely be made.

Fourth, the never-ending legal fight about when an upgrade to an old, grandfathered coal-fired plant makes it for all intents and purposes a &quot;new&quot; source for regualtory purposes has eaten up hundreds of millions of dollars that have gone to lobbyists and lawyers.  That money (termed &quot;dead-weight losses&quot; by economists) could be more profitably spent on wealth creating investments elsewhere.

If we find ourselves in a regulatory world in which tough standards are only imposed on those who can comfortably pay them but lighter standards are imposed on those who can&#039;t, we&#039;ll discover - as economists already have - that we&#039;re artificially subsidizing inefficient economic actors to the detriment of the economy as a whole.

Why is it libertarian to support such a policy?  If pollution is imposing significant costs on third parties, the proper libertarian position - it seems to me - is to at the very least force the polluter to compensate the injured third parties for the losses they are being forced to incur.  Establishing rules that let less economically healthy companies off the hook from said compensation does not strike me as a very principled (libertarian) thing to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jae:</p>
<p>The old-source/new-source distinction is unwise because it gravely distorts the market and creates rampant inefficiency.   A unit of air emissions from an old coal-fired power plant has the same environmental and human health impact as a unit of air emissions from a new coal-fired power plant.  What possible justification is there to treat those emissions differrently from a regulatory perspective?  Doing so leads to deep problems.</p>
<p>First, it imposes competitive disadvantages on new entrants which in  turn leads to the the cartelization of the wholesale power business.   The new-source/old-source standards are in effect a massive wealth transfer to coal-fired power plants built before 1970 and the wealth in question comes ultimately from ratepayers, who pay higher prices as a consequence of artificially restricting competition and encouraging producer inefficiency (see below).</p>
<p>Second, it encourages overall inefficiency in power production given the artificial advantages conferred to old plants relative to new, more efficient plants.  How many industries outside of the power industry find that the most profitable facilities are those with 40+ year-old technology?  Obviously, profit incentives like this distort investment flows in myriad, unproductive ways.</p>
<p>Third, upgrading those plants threatens to turn &#8220;old sources&#8221; into &#8220;new sources&#8221; for regulatory purposes.  This discourages otherwise economically sensible investments that would surely be made.</p>
<p>Fourth, the never-ending legal fight about when an upgrade to an old, grandfathered coal-fired plant makes it for all intents and purposes a &#8220;new&#8221; source for regualtory purposes has eaten up hundreds of millions of dollars that have gone to lobbyists and lawyers.  That money (termed &#8220;dead-weight losses&#8221; by economists) could be more profitably spent on wealth creating investments elsewhere.</p>
<p>If we find ourselves in a regulatory world in which tough standards are only imposed on those who can comfortably pay them but lighter standards are imposed on those who can&#8217;t, we&#8217;ll discover &#8211; as economists already have &#8211; that we&#8217;re artificially subsidizing inefficient economic actors to the detriment of the economy as a whole.</p>
<p>Why is it libertarian to support such a policy?  If pollution is imposing significant costs on third parties, the proper libertarian position &#8211; it seems to me &#8211; is to at the very least force the polluter to compensate the injured third parties for the losses they are being forced to incur.  Establishing rules that let less economically healthy companies off the hook from said compensation does not strike me as a very principled (libertarian) thing to do.</p>
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