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	<title>Comments on: Wind Integration: Incremental Emissions from Back-Up Generation Cycling (Part IV &#8211; Further Reflections)</title>
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	<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/12/wind-integration-incremental-emissions-from-back-up-generation-cycling-part-iv-further-reflections/</link>
	<description>A free-market energy blog</description>
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		<title>By: Emissions Savings References - Wind Farm Realities</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/12/wind-integration-incremental-emissions-from-back-up-generation-cycling-part-iv-further-reflections/comment-page-1/#comment-17066</link>
		<dc:creator>Emissions Savings References - Wind Farm Realities</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 May 2011 15:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masterresource.org/?p=6274#comment-17066</guid>
		<description>[...] Part 4 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Part 4 [...]</p>
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		<title>By: nofreewind</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/12/wind-integration-incremental-emissions-from-back-up-generation-cycling-part-iv-further-reflections/comment-page-1/#comment-3751</link>
		<dc:creator>nofreewind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masterresource.org/?p=6274#comment-3751</guid>
		<description>Kent, You did a terrific and thorough job with your in depth analysis and review of current literature.  Thank You.  Amazing, that we continue to be left with the question of what is going on &quot;in there&quot; with the wind energy. In there meaning the grid headquarters.  We need an insider to either show us the data and the procedures to prove us wrong or else, stop building these wind turbines!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kent, You did a terrific and thorough job with your in depth analysis and review of current literature.  Thank You.  Amazing, that we continue to be left with the question of what is going on &#8220;in there&#8221; with the wind energy. In there meaning the grid headquarters.  We need an insider to either show us the data and the procedures to prove us wrong or else, stop building these wind turbines!</p>
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		<title>By: Kent Hawkins</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/12/wind-integration-incremental-emissions-from-back-up-generation-cycling-part-iv-further-reflections/comment-page-1/#comment-3734</link>
		<dc:creator>Kent Hawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 14:17:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masterresource.org/?p=6274#comment-3734</guid>
		<description>The question I believe is: why does all this have to be theoretical? In effect, the calculator, and related considerations, is a call for comprehensive analyses to be done based on extensive, actual, real time data. I am not aware of the availability of the necessary fine-grained data anywhere. The other question is: why is it not available?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The question I believe is: why does all this have to be theoretical? In effect, the calculator, and related considerations, is a call for comprehensive analyses to be done based on extensive, actual, real time data. I am not aware of the availability of the necessary fine-grained data anywhere. The other question is: why is it not available?</p>
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		<title>By: nofreewind</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/12/wind-integration-incremental-emissions-from-back-up-generation-cycling-part-iv-further-reflections/comment-page-1/#comment-3727</link>
		<dc:creator>nofreewind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 03:48:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masterresource.org/?p=6274#comment-3727</guid>
		<description>Why is all of this analysis so &quot;theoretical&quot;.  There are many thousands of installed wind turbines throughout the world.  Is there a power company report where the engineers explain how they are following around the wind, showing the savings they claim.  The above power company slide from 2005 is also &quot;theoretical&quot;, because the slide creator assumes he can predict how much power the wind will create and so he places his arrows.  But even the slight creator hindsight, there is an enormous loss of fossil substitution.   In real life, the wind is variable and the turbine output is based on the cube of the wind speed, which means reliably predicting the turbine power output except in the grossest sense is impossible.  Just like the stock market, it seems quite easy look at a chart and think buy here and sell there, again reality proves otherwise.   The argument that large amount of turbines spread out over a region will diminish variability is simply FALSE.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why is all of this analysis so &#8220;theoretical&#8221;.  There are many thousands of installed wind turbines throughout the world.  Is there a power company report where the engineers explain how they are following around the wind, showing the savings they claim.  The above power company slide from 2005 is also &#8220;theoretical&#8221;, because the slide creator assumes he can predict how much power the wind will create and so he places his arrows.  But even the slight creator hindsight, there is an enormous loss of fossil substitution.   In real life, the wind is variable and the turbine output is based on the cube of the wind speed, which means reliably predicting the turbine power output except in the grossest sense is impossible.  Just like the stock market, it seems quite easy look at a chart and think buy here and sell there, again reality proves otherwise.   The argument that large amount of turbines spread out over a region will diminish variability is simply FALSE.</p>
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		<title>By: nofreewind</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/12/wind-integration-incremental-emissions-from-back-up-generation-cycling-part-iv-further-reflections/comment-page-1/#comment-3726</link>
		<dc:creator>nofreewind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 03:46:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masterresource.org/?p=6274#comment-3726</guid>
		<description>Why is all of this analysis so &quot;theoretical&quot;.  There are many thousands of installed wind turbines throughout the world.  Is there a power company report where the engineers explain how they are following around the wind, showing the savings they claim.  The above power company slide from 2005 is also &quot;theoretical&quot;, because the slide creator assumes he can predict how much power the wind will create and so he places his arrows.  But even the slight creator hindsight, there is an enormous loss of fossil substitution.   In real life, the wind is variable and the turbine output is based on the cube of the wind speed, which means reliably predicting the turbine power output except in the grossest sense is impossible.  Just like the stock market, it seems quite easy look at a chart and think buy here and sell there, again the reality proves otherwise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why is all of this analysis so &#8220;theoretical&#8221;.  There are many thousands of installed wind turbines throughout the world.  Is there a power company report where the engineers explain how they are following around the wind, showing the savings they claim.  The above power company slide from 2005 is also &#8220;theoretical&#8221;, because the slide creator assumes he can predict how much power the wind will create and so he places his arrows.  But even the slight creator hindsight, there is an enormous loss of fossil substitution.   In real life, the wind is variable and the turbine output is based on the cube of the wind speed, which means reliably predicting the turbine power output except in the grossest sense is impossible.  Just like the stock market, it seems quite easy look at a chart and think buy here and sell there, again the reality proves otherwise.</p>
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		<title>By: nofreewind</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/12/wind-integration-incremental-emissions-from-back-up-generation-cycling-part-iv-further-reflections/comment-page-1/#comment-3685</link>
		<dc:creator>nofreewind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 11:26:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masterresource.org/?p=6274#comment-3685</guid>
		<description>Here is a fascinating slide from a Cali ISO grid operator in-house presentation.  
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/11/2474018/nofreewind/Cali-wind.jpg
The slide is dated 2005 and we know Cali has managed the integration of hundreds of wind turbines for well over 20 years.  So what this slide means is that Cali ISO is loosing all of that wind energy between the two arrows, because spinning reserves are called into play, there is no substitution of wind energy by fossil.  If you look at wind output graphs, you can see that this slide does not represent an isolated, unusual day when the wind is variable.  Most days are like this!  So in this slide Cali ISO is admitting that after over 20 years of integrating wind, much of the wind energy is lost, a simple duplication of spinning 
reserves.  What we need is an grid manager insider to explain exactly how much wind is actually substituting for spinning/burning fossil.  I have read many grid integration studies, and what is fascinating is that they all seem to come from the &quot;theoretical&quot; basis.  They don&#039;t seem to address how much fossil was saved last week, but how much &quot;should&quot; be saved.  
Great examples.  Look at Irish Wind.  About 950 MW of it representing well over 500 turbines.  If we combine the Cali ISO slide with Irish wind we get almost NO SUBSTITUTION.
http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is a fascinating slide from a Cali ISO grid operator in-house presentation.<br />
<a href="http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/11/2474018/nofreewind/Cali-wind.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/11/2474018/nofreewind/Cali-wind.jpg</a><br />
The slide is dated 2005 and we know Cali has managed the integration of hundreds of wind turbines for well over 20 years.  So what this slide means is that Cali ISO is loosing all of that wind energy between the two arrows, because spinning reserves are called into play, there is no substitution of wind energy by fossil.  If you look at wind output graphs, you can see that this slide does not represent an isolated, unusual day when the wind is variable.  Most days are like this!  So in this slide Cali ISO is admitting that after over 20 years of integrating wind, much of the wind energy is lost, a simple duplication of spinning<br />
reserves.  What we need is an grid manager insider to explain exactly how much wind is actually substituting for spinning/burning fossil.  I have read many grid integration studies, and what is fascinating is that they all seem to come from the &#8220;theoretical&#8221; basis.  They don&#8217;t seem to address how much fossil was saved last week, but how much &#8220;should&#8221; be saved.<br />
Great examples.  Look at Irish Wind.  About 950 MW of it representing well over 500 turbines.  If we combine the Cali ISO slide with Irish wind we get almost NO SUBSTITUTION.<br />
<a href="http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/" rel="nofollow">http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jon Boone</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/12/wind-integration-incremental-emissions-from-back-up-generation-cycling-part-iv-further-reflections/comment-page-1/#comment-3677</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Boone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:11:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masterresource.org/?p=6274#comment-3677</guid>
		<description>The addition of wind as a quixotic supernumerary will displace a portion of some conventional fuel, thereby reducing income for the owner/operator of that fuel. This reduced income must be compensated for, either in the form of higher prices or, eventually, in the closing of the plant itself, highly unlikely given the requirement for capacity value. Despite the presence of around 100,000 industrial-scale wind turbines in the world, no conventional plant has yet been shuttered because of wind energy.

The operative wind speed ranges for a typical wind project, begin at speeds of about 9 mph and reach the project&#039;s rated capacity at 33-34 mph. Within that range, any power depends upon the cube of the wind speed, thereby accentuating the project&#039;s fluctuating volatility. It&#039;s one thing to consider the requirements for compensatory generation when the wind isn&#039;t blowing in the necessary speed range; and it&#039;s another to understand the dynamics involved even when the wind is blowing within that speed range. When, for example, a wind project with a rated capacity of 1000MW is only producing 50MW--or nothing--at peak demand times, conventional generators must fill this breach. At the same time, when that same wind project is producing 600MW in one minute, 500MW the next, 550 the next, 450 the next, and so on, instant compensation from conventional generators is required. Given the conditions imposed by the cube of the wind speed, this is business as usual for wind energy. Finally, however, at times the wind energy will ebb and spike precipitously, causing wind and rapid changes that also must be compensated for by large scale dynamics--typically inefficient thermodynamics.

Wind volatility increases and intensifies the mechanisms used to balance demand fluctuations, which by themselves impose significant financial costs. Adding wind flux can only increase those costs, not decrease them. I suspect that these increased costs are not simply arithmetic but rather exponential: as more wind penetrates the system, the costs of wind integration cascade. An independent energy economist might discover a fruitful yield from this kind of inquiry.

All the ways in which wind flux can be compensated for by conventional thermal plants--natural gas, coal, oil-- on a routine operational basis results in substantial CO2 costs. Kent Hawkins&#039; calculus supports Peter Lang&#039;s conclusion that an efficient collaboration of open and closed cycle gas units working in tandem with wind energy, could result in CO2 system offsets that achieve about 15% greater yield than would be achieved by the gas units alone, without wind. Using only OCGT, both analyses suggest little or no savings. Using coal and oil as the primary means of wind integration would increase system CO2 emissions beyond the levels produced without the addition of wind. 

Engineers, using many of the same techniques designed for balancing demand fluctuations, can integrate wind volatility at varying levels of penetration. If it&#039;s only a few percentages of total supply, no additional conventional supply seems to be necessary. Beyond this, as the level of wind threatens marginal safety reserves, additional conventional supply must be considered for grid security. No matter what engineers do, however, they cannot escape increasing the financial costs rather substantially. And they cannot avoid increasing the thermodynamics. In most cases, they are faced with the prospect of actually producing more CO2 than would be generated without any wind at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The addition of wind as a quixotic supernumerary will displace a portion of some conventional fuel, thereby reducing income for the owner/operator of that fuel. This reduced income must be compensated for, either in the form of higher prices or, eventually, in the closing of the plant itself, highly unlikely given the requirement for capacity value. Despite the presence of around 100,000 industrial-scale wind turbines in the world, no conventional plant has yet been shuttered because of wind energy.</p>
<p>The operative wind speed ranges for a typical wind project, begin at speeds of about 9 mph and reach the project&#8217;s rated capacity at 33-34 mph. Within that range, any power depends upon the cube of the wind speed, thereby accentuating the project&#8217;s fluctuating volatility. It&#8217;s one thing to consider the requirements for compensatory generation when the wind isn&#8217;t blowing in the necessary speed range; and it&#8217;s another to understand the dynamics involved even when the wind is blowing within that speed range. When, for example, a wind project with a rated capacity of 1000MW is only producing 50MW&#8211;or nothing&#8211;at peak demand times, conventional generators must fill this breach. At the same time, when that same wind project is producing 600MW in one minute, 500MW the next, 550 the next, 450 the next, and so on, instant compensation from conventional generators is required. Given the conditions imposed by the cube of the wind speed, this is business as usual for wind energy. Finally, however, at times the wind energy will ebb and spike precipitously, causing wind and rapid changes that also must be compensated for by large scale dynamics&#8211;typically inefficient thermodynamics.</p>
<p>Wind volatility increases and intensifies the mechanisms used to balance demand fluctuations, which by themselves impose significant financial costs. Adding wind flux can only increase those costs, not decrease them. I suspect that these increased costs are not simply arithmetic but rather exponential: as more wind penetrates the system, the costs of wind integration cascade. An independent energy economist might discover a fruitful yield from this kind of inquiry.</p>
<p>All the ways in which wind flux can be compensated for by conventional thermal plants&#8211;natural gas, coal, oil&#8211; on a routine operational basis results in substantial CO2 costs. Kent Hawkins&#8217; calculus supports Peter Lang&#8217;s conclusion that an efficient collaboration of open and closed cycle gas units working in tandem with wind energy, could result in CO2 system offsets that achieve about 15% greater yield than would be achieved by the gas units alone, without wind. Using only OCGT, both analyses suggest little or no savings. Using coal and oil as the primary means of wind integration would increase system CO2 emissions beyond the levels produced without the addition of wind. </p>
<p>Engineers, using many of the same techniques designed for balancing demand fluctuations, can integrate wind volatility at varying levels of penetration. If it&#8217;s only a few percentages of total supply, no additional conventional supply seems to be necessary. Beyond this, as the level of wind threatens marginal safety reserves, additional conventional supply must be considered for grid security. No matter what engineers do, however, they cannot escape increasing the financial costs rather substantially. And they cannot avoid increasing the thermodynamics. In most cases, they are faced with the prospect of actually producing more CO2 than would be generated without any wind at all.</p>
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