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	<title>Comments on: Climate Politics: Running Scared in the EU (even before Climategate)</title>
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	<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/11/climate-politics-running-scared-in-the-eu/</link>
	<description>A free-market energy blog</description>
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		<title>By: Jon Boone</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/11/climate-politics-running-scared-in-the-eu/comment-page-1/#comment-3406</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Boone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:05:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks for providing these clarifying emendations, Donald. I had known that, by 2007, the US produced slightly lower emissions than did the EU, even the newly constituted EU. And I had known that the inclusion of the former Soviet Union countries from eastern Europe accounted for the &quot;reductions&quot; in the rate of EU carbon emissions from 1997-2004. But your comments here enlarged my understanding. We knew that European cap-and-trade policies did not achieve their goals. But this was always accounting legerdemain, not reality. By examining machine performance, you force people to regard reality. 

Perhaps you&#039;ll consider expanding your ideas in a short paper. Such an analysis is particularly timely, given claims made by the renewable crowd about how renewables are contributing to EU greenhouse gas reductions--exemplifying how they would transform  North America. These are false claims, which are now made at the highest levels of government.

Europe, with its failed cap-and-trade schemes and over 60,000 huge wind turbines and sundry solar operations that have not produced meaningful carbon offsets, should serve as an example of what not to do here. It&#039;s not just failed policy; it&#039;s also failed technology, as Kent Hawkins and others are showing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for providing these clarifying emendations, Donald. I had known that, by 2007, the US produced slightly lower emissions than did the EU, even the newly constituted EU. And I had known that the inclusion of the former Soviet Union countries from eastern Europe accounted for the &#8220;reductions&#8221; in the rate of EU carbon emissions from 1997-2004. But your comments here enlarged my understanding. We knew that European cap-and-trade policies did not achieve their goals. But this was always accounting legerdemain, not reality. By examining machine performance, you force people to regard reality. </p>
<p>Perhaps you&#8217;ll consider expanding your ideas in a short paper. Such an analysis is particularly timely, given claims made by the renewable crowd about how renewables are contributing to EU greenhouse gas reductions&#8211;exemplifying how they would transform  North America. These are false claims, which are now made at the highest levels of government.</p>
<p>Europe, with its failed cap-and-trade schemes and over 60,000 huge wind turbines and sundry solar operations that have not produced meaningful carbon offsets, should serve as an example of what not to do here. It&#8217;s not just failed policy; it&#8217;s also failed technology, as Kent Hawkins and others are showing.</p>
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		<title>By: Donald Hertzmark</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/11/climate-politics-running-scared-in-the-eu/comment-page-1/#comment-3404</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald Hertzmark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:50:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masterresource.org/?p=5937#comment-3404</guid>
		<description>Jon,
Looking into the national comparisons of CO2 output for a note published a couple of years ago I found that:  &quot;. . . .the treaty seem[s] to have little positive effect among its signatories, [but] the EU collectively has done worse than the US at controlling CO2 emissions.

Between 1997 and 2004, based on US Department of Energy data cited earlier, the US CO2 output rose by about 6.6%, less than one percent annually and about one fourth the rate of US economic growth in that period.

In contrast the &quot;core&quot; EU countries, those that were members before the fall of Communism showed an increase in CO2 output of 11.3%, about 1.5% per year, and almost three quarters of their rates of economic growth.  Only the inclusion of the former communist countries, East Germany, Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, make the EU look like a good world citizen. 

. . . . it is no surprise that the collapse of the communist model would lead to lower energy use in those countries once EU technology and investment became available to these countries.  The difference is stark.  The EU, including the former Eastern European countries, saw its CO2 emissions rise just 4.2% from 1997 to 2004.  CO2  production in all of the new EU members was distinctly negative over that period (-6.4%).  Among the &quot;core&quot; EU members, only Denmark produced less CO2 in 2004 than in 1997.&quot;

In fact, between 2000 and 2004 every EU member, except Ireland and Cyprus increased CO2 output per person, most at higher rates than the US.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon,<br />
Looking into the national comparisons of CO2 output for a note published a couple of years ago I found that:  &#8220;. . . .the treaty seem[s] to have little positive effect among its signatories, [but] the EU collectively has done worse than the US at controlling CO2 emissions.</p>
<p>Between 1997 and 2004, based on US Department of Energy data cited earlier, the US CO2 output rose by about 6.6%, less than one percent annually and about one fourth the rate of US economic growth in that period.</p>
<p>In contrast the &#8220;core&#8221; EU countries, those that were members before the fall of Communism showed an increase in CO2 output of 11.3%, about 1.5% per year, and almost three quarters of their rates of economic growth.  Only the inclusion of the former communist countries, East Germany, Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, make the EU look like a good world citizen. </p>
<p>. . . . it is no surprise that the collapse of the communist model would lead to lower energy use in those countries once EU technology and investment became available to these countries.  The difference is stark.  The EU, including the former Eastern European countries, saw its CO2 emissions rise just 4.2% from 1997 to 2004.  CO2  production in all of the new EU members was distinctly negative over that period (-6.4%).  Among the &#8220;core&#8221; EU members, only Denmark produced less CO2 in 2004 than in 1997.&#8221;</p>
<p>In fact, between 2000 and 2004 every EU member, except Ireland and Cyprus increased CO2 output per person, most at higher rates than the US.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Boone</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/11/climate-politics-running-scared-in-the-eu/comment-page-1/#comment-3402</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Boone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 19:13:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masterresource.org/?p=5937#comment-3402</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re right, Charles. The people at Palermo were mainly concerned about stopping the runaway charge of industrial wind. I gave a presentation there, applauded by many, engaging just your point. The conference leaders sought rapprochement with those organizing the Copenhagen agenda. Pointing out that the entire reason for Copenhagen is fraudulent would have been the veridical truth. But it unlikely would not have gotten much political traction.

As for Andrew&#039;s comment about no countries in the EU experiencing a decline in carbon emissions since 1990, with the exception of the Soviet Union and Russia (because of the economic drift that resulted from the dissolution of the Soviet Union), he&#039;s likely correct--all things considered.

In the production of electricity, Denmark experienced a 6% reduction in the use of fossil fuels, made possible almost solely because of increased importation of Scandinavian hydro. Germany has cut its fossil fuel use in electricity production by about 3%. However, it also cut its nuclear generation by 7% while substantially increasing use of biofuels. It&#039;s therefore not clear whether Germany has actually reduced emissions of greenhouse gasses in its overall production of electricity. Spain, of course, continues to spew CO2. 

When most factors are accounted for--electricity, transportation, heating, along with a few others--the EU nations are indeed likely to have increased their carbon emissions, while few have even come close to meeting their Kyoto quotas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right, Charles. The people at Palermo were mainly concerned about stopping the runaway charge of industrial wind. I gave a presentation there, applauded by many, engaging just your point. The conference leaders sought rapprochement with those organizing the Copenhagen agenda. Pointing out that the entire reason for Copenhagen is fraudulent would have been the veridical truth. But it unlikely would not have gotten much political traction.</p>
<p>As for Andrew&#8217;s comment about no countries in the EU experiencing a decline in carbon emissions since 1990, with the exception of the Soviet Union and Russia (because of the economic drift that resulted from the dissolution of the Soviet Union), he&#8217;s likely correct&#8211;all things considered.</p>
<p>In the production of electricity, Denmark experienced a 6% reduction in the use of fossil fuels, made possible almost solely because of increased importation of Scandinavian hydro. Germany has cut its fossil fuel use in electricity production by about 3%. However, it also cut its nuclear generation by 7% while substantially increasing use of biofuels. It&#8217;s therefore not clear whether Germany has actually reduced emissions of greenhouse gasses in its overall production of electricity. Spain, of course, continues to spew CO2. </p>
<p>When most factors are accounted for&#8211;electricity, transportation, heating, along with a few others&#8211;the EU nations are indeed likely to have increased their carbon emissions, while few have even come close to meeting their Kyoto quotas.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles Battig</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/11/climate-politics-running-scared-in-the-eu/comment-page-1/#comment-3401</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Battig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:07:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masterresource.org/?p=5937#comment-3401</guid>
		<description>The crafters of the  Charter of Palermo, as quoted by J. Boone above,  almost  connected all the dots with their statement.  The final step would have been to state that &quot;the problem&quot; has been overstated.  Which problem is &quot;the problem&quot;?  As Climategate unfolds, the problem may be revealed to be man made global warming data rather than man made global warming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The crafters of the  Charter of Palermo, as quoted by J. Boone above,  almost  connected all the dots with their statement.  The final step would have been to state that &#8220;the problem&#8221; has been overstated.  Which problem is &#8220;the problem&#8221;?  As Climategate unfolds, the problem may be revealed to be man made global warming data rather than man made global warming.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Boone</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/11/climate-politics-running-scared-in-the-eu/comment-page-1/#comment-3400</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Boone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:49:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masterresource.org/?p=5937#comment-3400</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this well-reasoned piece, Carlo. Perhaps you&#039;re in contact with Carlo Ripa di Meana, president of Italia Nostra, Italy&#039;s largest conservation organization, who worked with hundreds of people to host a two day conference last March in Palermo to discuss The Landscape Under Attack. The keynote speaker was Valery Giscard d&#039;Estaing, former French president. He was joined by Sicilian president Raffaele Lombardo and many other politicians, economists, environmentalists, and scientists--all concerned about what the EU&#039;s carbon policies were doing to the Italian--indeed, the European--landscape, particularly as it justified the deployment of sprawling renewable energy plants.

The conference produced the Charter of Palermo, calling for the EU to take immediate steps to protect the European landscape from such development and urging delegates to Copenhagen not to plunge willy nilly into support for technologies that &quot;are not the right solution&quot; to the problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this well-reasoned piece, Carlo. Perhaps you&#8217;re in contact with Carlo Ripa di Meana, president of Italia Nostra, Italy&#8217;s largest conservation organization, who worked with hundreds of people to host a two day conference last March in Palermo to discuss The Landscape Under Attack. The keynote speaker was Valery Giscard d&#8217;Estaing, former French president. He was joined by Sicilian president Raffaele Lombardo and many other politicians, economists, environmentalists, and scientists&#8211;all concerned about what the EU&#8217;s carbon policies were doing to the Italian&#8211;indeed, the European&#8211;landscape, particularly as it justified the deployment of sprawling renewable energy plants.</p>
<p>The conference produced the Charter of Palermo, calling for the EU to take immediate steps to protect the European landscape from such development and urging delegates to Copenhagen not to plunge willy nilly into support for technologies that &#8220;are not the right solution&#8221; to the problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/11/climate-politics-running-scared-in-the-eu/comment-page-1/#comment-3399</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:45:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masterresource.org/?p=5937#comment-3399</guid>
		<description>I  have a gripe about figure one: The apparent decline of European Emissions since 1990 is almost certainly confined to Nations from the Former Soviet Union and the old Bloc. I know of no Western European Country that has had declining emissions since then but I do know that a dramatic decline in emissions just happened to occur when the Soviets couldn&#039;t prop up their failed system anymore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I  have a gripe about figure one: The apparent decline of European Emissions since 1990 is almost certainly confined to Nations from the Former Soviet Union and the old Bloc. I know of no Western European Country that has had declining emissions since then but I do know that a dramatic decline in emissions just happened to occur when the Soviets couldn&#8217;t prop up their failed system anymore.</p>
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