Comments on: The Iron Age & Coal-based Coke: A Neglected Case of Fossil-fuel Dependence http://www.masterresource.org/2009/09/a-forgotten-case-of-fossil-fuel-dependence-the-iron-age-requires-carbon-based-energy-like-it-or-not/ A free-market energy blog Sat, 11 Feb 2012 20:41:38 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Global Energy & Resources | Brave New World http://www.masterresource.org/2009/09/a-forgotten-case-of-fossil-fuel-dependence-the-iron-age-requires-carbon-based-energy-like-it-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-20011 Global Energy & Resources | Brave New World Thu, 19 Jan 2012 18:52:52 +0000 http://masterresource.org/?p=4761#comment-20011 [...] V. (2009, September 17). The iron age & coal-based coke: A neglected case of fossil-fuel dependence. Master [...] [...] V. (2009, September 17). The iron age & coal-based coke: A neglected case of fossil-fuel dependence. Master [...]

]]> By: Transition Times :: Transition Times » Blog Archive » Depletion of Key Resources: Facts at Your Fingertips http://www.masterresource.org/2009/09/a-forgotten-case-of-fossil-fuel-dependence-the-iron-age-requires-carbon-based-energy-like-it-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-4270 Transition Times :: Transition Times » Blog Archive » Depletion of Key Resources: Facts at Your Fingertips Sun, 31 Jan 2010 21:44:15 +0000 http://masterresource.org/?p=4761#comment-4270 [...] Smil, Vaclav. “The Iron Age & Coal-based Coke: A Neglected Case of Fossil-fuel Dependence” Master Resource, 17 September [...] [...] Smil, Vaclav. “The Iron Age & Coal-based Coke: A Neglected Case of Fossil-fuel Dependence” Master Resource, 17 September [...]

]]> By: Richard W. Fulmer http://www.masterresource.org/2009/09/a-forgotten-case-of-fossil-fuel-dependence-the-iron-age-requires-carbon-based-energy-like-it-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-2354 Richard W. Fulmer Sun, 20 Sep 2009 19:59:02 +0000 http://masterresource.org/?p=4761#comment-2354 If a windmill costs $4.5 million worth of energy, how long will it take to produce enough electricity to "pay for itself"? (What is the capacity of the "theoretical" windmill used in your calculations?) Is the estimated payback time within the windmill's expected life? How does this compare with, say, a coal-fired plant or a nuclear facility? If a windmill costs $4.5 million worth of energy, how long will it take to produce enough electricity to “pay for itself”? (What is the capacity of the “theoretical” windmill used in your calculations?) Is the estimated payback time within the windmill’s expected life? How does this compare with, say, a coal-fired plant or a nuclear facility?

]]> By: Gary Novak http://www.masterresource.org/2009/09/a-forgotten-case-of-fossil-fuel-dependence-the-iron-age-requires-carbon-based-energy-like-it-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-2353 Gary Novak Sat, 19 Sep 2009 06:03:34 +0000 http://masterresource.org/?p=4761#comment-2353 I roughly estimate that every dollar spent for anything consists of about ninety cents worth of energy and about ten cents worth of metals, with traces of wood, silicone, etc. I say this because energy is an extracted resource, and it can only be compared to other extracted resources. About ninety percent of the cost of extracted resources is energy, roughly speaking. In other words, the cost of energy cannot be compared to the cost of painting or agriculture, because those things include energy. So if a windmill costs $5 million to produce, it uses $4.5 million worth of energy. If the government has to subsidize it at 20%, it will only produce $4 million worth of electricity. It uses more dollars worth of energy in manufacturing than it produces as electricity. I roughly estimate that every dollar spent for anything consists of about ninety cents worth of energy and about ten cents worth of metals, with traces of wood, silicone, etc.

I say this because energy is an extracted resource, and it can only be compared to other extracted resources. About ninety percent of the cost of extracted resources is energy, roughly speaking.

In other words, the cost of energy cannot be compared to the cost of painting or agriculture, because those things include energy.

So if a windmill costs $5 million to produce, it uses $4.5 million worth of energy. If the government has to subsidize it at 20%, it will only produce $4 million worth of electricity. It uses more dollars worth of energy in manufacturing than it produces as electricity.

]]> By: Richard W. Fulmer http://www.masterresource.org/2009/09/a-forgotten-case-of-fossil-fuel-dependence-the-iron-age-requires-carbon-based-energy-like-it-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-2349 Richard W. Fulmer Fri, 18 Sep 2009 20:33:31 +0000 http://masterresource.org/?p=4761#comment-2349 Is it possible to grind up charcoal into a powder and then somehow "bind" it into pellets that have the necessary compressive strength? Is it possible to grind up charcoal into a powder and then somehow “bind” it into pellets that have the necessary compressive strength?

]]> By: Vaclav Smil http://www.masterresource.org/2009/09/a-forgotten-case-of-fossil-fuel-dependence-the-iron-age-requires-carbon-based-energy-like-it-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-2350 Vaclav Smil Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:56:42 +0000 http://masterresource.org/?p=4761#comment-2350 Unfortunately, not much else can be used besides the already added coal, plastic pellets and perhaps some charcoal; there is a brand new experimental study (no commercial runs) showing that replacing a bit of coke by charcoal might be ok as long as the charcoal is in rough chunks and not in fine particles, but even so the structural weakness of charcoal will always limit its use in large modern blast furnaces. Simply, coke offers an unbeatable combination of desirable properties. Unfortunately, not much else can be used besides the already added coal, plastic pellets and perhaps some charcoal; there is a brand new experimental study (no commercial runs) showing that replacing a bit of coke by charcoal might be ok as long as the charcoal is in rough chunks and not in fine particles, but even so the structural weakness of charcoal will always limit its use in large modern blast furnaces. Simply, coke offers an unbeatable combination of desirable properties.

]]> By: Marlo Lewis http://www.masterresource.org/2009/09/a-forgotten-case-of-fossil-fuel-dependence-the-iron-age-requires-carbon-based-energy-like-it-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-2351 Marlo Lewis Fri, 18 Sep 2009 15:53:53 +0000 http://masterresource.org/?p=4761#comment-2351 A veritable crash course in energy technology -- but of course we would expect no less from Vaclav Smil. Question: How does mankind's continuing dependence on coke affect the feasibility of the popular EU/IPCC/IEA "stabilization" target of a 50% reduction in global CO2 emissions below 1990 levels by 2050? If the information Prof. Smil presents here is not incorporated into EU/IPCC/IEA baseline projections, then the EU, IPCC, and IEA likely underestimate the emission reductions required by other sources (transport, power generation, non-ferrous manufacturing) to meet the stabilization target. I'd be grateful for any illumination on this point. A veritable crash course in energy technology — but of course we would expect no less from Vaclav Smil. Question: How does mankind’s continuing dependence on coke affect the feasibility of the popular EU/IPCC/IEA “stabilization” target of a 50% reduction in global CO2 emissions below 1990 levels by 2050? If the information Prof. Smil presents here is not incorporated into EU/IPCC/IEA baseline projections, then the EU, IPCC, and IEA likely underestimate the emission reductions required by other sources (transport, power generation, non-ferrous manufacturing) to meet the stabilization target. I’d be grateful for any illumination on this point.

]]> By: joelsk44039 http://www.masterresource.org/2009/09/a-forgotten-case-of-fossil-fuel-dependence-the-iron-age-requires-carbon-based-energy-like-it-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-2352 joelsk44039 Fri, 18 Sep 2009 10:35:26 +0000 http://masterresource.org/?p=4761#comment-2352 Plastic waste is mentioned in this article. What other sources of carbon can be pyrolized on a large scale? If there are any, what physical characteristics (as mentioned in the article) would be most important in considering fixed carbon from other sources as a substitute for metalurgical coke? Plastic waste is mentioned in this article. What other sources of carbon can be pyrolized on a large scale? If there are any, what physical characteristics (as mentioned in the article) would be most important in considering fixed carbon from other sources as a substitute for metalurgical coke?

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