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	<title>Comments on: The Cato Climate Ad, Joe Romm, and Swanson &amp; Tsonis</title>
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	<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/04/the-cato-climate-ad-joe-romm-and-swanson-tsonis/</link>
	<description>A free-market energy blog</description>
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		<title>By: rpate</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/04/the-cato-climate-ad-joe-romm-and-swanson-tsonis/comment-page-1/#comment-10388</link>
		<dc:creator>rpate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 May 2010 22:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://masterresource.org/?p=1818#comment-10388</guid>
		<description>Check out Dr. Roy Spencer&#039;s latest book, THE GREAT GLOBAL WARMING BLUNDER,  in which he shows with global satellite data that the climate exhibits strong NEGATIVE FEEDBACK  (limits temperature changes due to forcings) in contrast to the IPCC models which all have varying degrees of POSITIVE  FEEDBACK 
(amplifies temperature changes due to CO2 forcings).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Check out Dr. Roy Spencer&#8217;s latest book, THE GREAT GLOBAL WARMING BLUNDER,  in which he shows with global satellite data that the climate exhibits strong NEGATIVE FEEDBACK  (limits temperature changes due to forcings) in contrast to the IPCC models which all have varying degrees of POSITIVE  FEEDBACK<br />
(amplifies temperature changes due to CO2 forcings).</p>
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		<title>By: J. Patterson</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/04/the-cato-climate-ad-joe-romm-and-swanson-tsonis/comment-page-1/#comment-2567</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Patterson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Sep 2009 17:20:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://masterresource.org/?p=1818#comment-2567</guid>
		<description>I keep seeing statements like this one from the Swanson &amp; Tsonis conclusion section cited above: &lt;blockquote&gt;Moreover, we caution that the shifts described here are presumably superimposed upon a long term warming trend due to anthropogenic forcing.&lt;/blockquote&gt; Mojib Latif has made  similar arguments when discussing current GWMs  inaccuracy at the decadal time scale.  I wonder why no one has stepped  forward to point out that a  superpositional decomposition of this sort is completely invalid for the analysis of coupled non-linear, time-variant systems  such as global climate dynamics. One simply can not separate &quot;natural variations&quot; from  anthropogenic forcing in a system whose feedback sensitivities are functions of the output state, a fact easily provable and taught in every first year physics curriculum.  Superposition only applies to linear, time-invariant (LTI) systems, which our climate is most assured not.

For the same reason, the only scientifically valid conclusion one can draw when observations exceed the confidence intervals of the model, as recent MGT observations have, is that the model is invalid. This is true whether exiting on the low side or high side. It is inaccurate to say AGW is better (or worse) than we thought and therefore or century scale projections must be adjusted downward (or upward).  The only thing one can say is that at this point in  GCMs development, they have nothing predictive to offer to the policy debate nor can they be used to identify the source of observed warming (or cooling) trends.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I keep seeing statements like this one from the Swanson &amp; Tsonis conclusion section cited above:<br />
<blockquote>Moreover, we caution that the shifts described here are presumably superimposed upon a long term warming trend due to anthropogenic forcing.</p></blockquote>
<p> Mojib Latif has made  similar arguments when discussing current GWMs  inaccuracy at the decadal time scale.  I wonder why no one has stepped  forward to point out that a  superpositional decomposition of this sort is completely invalid for the analysis of coupled non-linear, time-variant systems  such as global climate dynamics. One simply can not separate &#8220;natural variations&#8221; from  anthropogenic forcing in a system whose feedback sensitivities are functions of the output state, a fact easily provable and taught in every first year physics curriculum.  Superposition only applies to linear, time-invariant (LTI) systems, which our climate is most assured not.</p>
<p>For the same reason, the only scientifically valid conclusion one can draw when observations exceed the confidence intervals of the model, as recent MGT observations have, is that the model is invalid. This is true whether exiting on the low side or high side. It is inaccurate to say AGW is better (or worse) than we thought and therefore or century scale projections must be adjusted downward (or upward).  The only thing one can say is that at this point in  GCMs development, they have nothing predictive to offer to the policy debate nor can they be used to identify the source of observed warming (or cooling) trends.</p>
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		<title>By: cknappenberger</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/04/the-cato-climate-ad-joe-romm-and-swanson-tsonis/comment-page-1/#comment-950</link>
		<dc:creator>cknappenberger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 22:26:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://masterresource.org/?p=1818#comment-950</guid>
		<description>In case anyone needs further proof of the implications of Swanson&amp;Tsonis concerning sulfate aerosols, the same researchers, along with Geli Wang, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2009/2008GL036874.shtml&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;just published an article &lt;/a&gt;that appeared today in &lt;em&gt;Geophysical Research Letters &lt;/em&gt;that examines some potential reasons that the climate goes through a state-change every couple of decades or so. One thing that is conspicuously absent in their latest work is any mention of sulfate aerosols in playing a role. Perhaps one could argue that the role of sulfates is tied together with greenhouse gases to influence the interplay of the major climate modes that the authors have identified as being behind the state-changes. But that argument becomes largely untenable as the authors find the same mechanisms at play in climate model control runs—i.e., in runs not forced by changes in atmospheric greenhouse gases or aerosols. Thus, these state-changes seem to be part of the background climate system, rather than something unique to the era of human climate influence.

Again, I’ll make the point that if sulfates are not the primary reason for the episodic nature of the global temperature history of the past 100 years or so, then the climate models have some serious issues to deal with.

-Chip</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In case anyone needs further proof of the implications of Swanson&amp;Tsonis concerning sulfate aerosols, the same researchers, along with Geli Wang, <a href="http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2009/2008GL036874.shtml" rel="nofollow">just published an article </a>that appeared today in <em>Geophysical Research Letters </em>that examines some potential reasons that the climate goes through a state-change every couple of decades or so. One thing that is conspicuously absent in their latest work is any mention of sulfate aerosols in playing a role. Perhaps one could argue that the role of sulfates is tied together with greenhouse gases to influence the interplay of the major climate modes that the authors have identified as being behind the state-changes. But that argument becomes largely untenable as the authors find the same mechanisms at play in climate model control runs—i.e., in runs not forced by changes in atmospheric greenhouse gases or aerosols. Thus, these state-changes seem to be part of the background climate system, rather than something unique to the era of human climate influence.</p>
<p>Again, I’ll make the point that if sulfates are not the primary reason for the episodic nature of the global temperature history of the past 100 years or so, then the climate models have some serious issues to deal with.</p>
<p>-Chip</p>
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		<title>By: Demesure</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/04/the-cato-climate-ad-joe-romm-and-swanson-tsonis/comment-page-1/#comment-949</link>
		<dc:creator>Demesure</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:33:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://masterresource.org/?p=1818#comment-949</guid>
		<description>The speculations on climate sensitivity in Swanson et al paper&#039;s conclusions may logically go both ways: if natural variability has cooled the Earth over the past decades, then yes, it has masked the models warming and sensitivity would be much &quot;higher than predicted&quot;. But if  natural factors have warmed the Earth, then the GHG warming effect and hence sensitivity is much lower than predicted.

Over the past 3 decades, there have been many observations that suggest natural variability have increased temperatures rather than decreaesed : el Nino dominant phase of the PDO, el Chichon+Pinatubo in the 80 &amp; 90 and the exceptional 98 el Nino which conjure to skew the temperature trend up, the high solar activity of the past 3 solar cycles (they are among the 6 cycles with most sunspots for more than 3 centuries).

The fact that Swanson et al -and Dr Romm- chose only the high sensitivity hypothesis in their conclusion is evidence that their speculation is biased by at best  PC conformity pressure, at worse unscientific and preconceived views.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The speculations on climate sensitivity in Swanson et al paper&#8217;s conclusions may logically go both ways: if natural variability has cooled the Earth over the past decades, then yes, it has masked the models warming and sensitivity would be much &#8220;higher than predicted&#8221;. But if  natural factors have warmed the Earth, then the GHG warming effect and hence sensitivity is much lower than predicted.</p>
<p>Over the past 3 decades, there have been many observations that suggest natural variability have increased temperatures rather than decreaesed : el Nino dominant phase of the PDO, el Chichon+Pinatubo in the 80 &amp; 90 and the exceptional 98 el Nino which conjure to skew the temperature trend up, the high solar activity of the past 3 solar cycles (they are among the 6 cycles with most sunspots for more than 3 centuries).</p>
<p>The fact that Swanson et al -and Dr Romm- chose only the high sensitivity hypothesis in their conclusion is evidence that their speculation is biased by at best  PC conformity pressure, at worse unscientific and preconceived views.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/04/the-cato-climate-ad-joe-romm-and-swanson-tsonis/comment-page-1/#comment-948</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 17:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Great points! When you put it that way, it definitely is clear that these shifts probably mean less warming, not more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great points! When you put it that way, it definitely is clear that these shifts probably mean less warming, not more.</p>
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		<title>By: cknappenberger</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/04/the-cato-climate-ad-joe-romm-and-swanson-tsonis/comment-page-1/#comment-952</link>
		<dc:creator>cknappenberger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://masterresource.org/?p=1818#comment-952</guid>
		<description>Andrew,

It is definitely complicated. I agree with Dr. Swanson that when the climate shifts, then the temperature will increase at a faster rate (then present), but, I don’t necessarily agree that it will be at a rate much greater than expected. For instance, the warming during the 1980s and 1990s (presumably part of which was being stored up by the cooling state of the 1940-1970s) wasn’t greater than expected (from climate models). Observations seem to indicate that during Swanon&amp;Tsonis’s “cool” periods, global temperature rise doesn’t occur very fast (despite increases in radiative forcing from growing greenhouse gas concentrations), and that during Swanson&amp;Tsonis “warming” periods, the warming occurs along the lines of model expectations.  Take the two periods together, and you get less total warming than projected.

-Chip</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew,</p>
<p>It is definitely complicated. I agree with Dr. Swanson that when the climate shifts, then the temperature will increase at a faster rate (then present), but, I don’t necessarily agree that it will be at a rate much greater than expected. For instance, the warming during the 1980s and 1990s (presumably part of which was being stored up by the cooling state of the 1940-1970s) wasn’t greater than expected (from climate models). Observations seem to indicate that during Swanon&amp;Tsonis’s “cool” periods, global temperature rise doesn’t occur very fast (despite increases in radiative forcing from growing greenhouse gas concentrations), and that during Swanson&amp;Tsonis “warming” periods, the warming occurs along the lines of model expectations.  Take the two periods together, and you get less total warming than projected.</p>
<p>-Chip</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.masterresource.org/2009/04/the-cato-climate-ad-joe-romm-and-swanson-tsonis/comment-page-1/#comment-951</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 14:25:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://masterresource.org/?p=1818#comment-951</guid>
		<description>Knowing what I do about the authors of that study&#039;s statements to the press about their recent research, I would bet that the point which Romm wishes to emphasize was put in there by Swanson. It&#039;s an obligatory nod to Catastrophic AGW where none is really appropriate. They are saying that &quot;Yes, natural variability is greater than we thought, but even though this calls attribution studies into question, it is possible that natural variability did not cause the warming but instead hid it from view, meaning sensitivity is greater than we thought, and things are worse than we thought&quot;-a technically true statement, but misleading, because it is actually more likely that the ~opposite~ is true-that natural variability has exaggerated the warming, thus creating the illusion of a climate system which is highly sensitive to Anthropogenic forcing. Plus, they are assuming that the natural variability ~response~ is larger than expect from a &quot;known&quot; level of natural &quot;forcing&quot;-when it could really easily be the opposite-the natural forcings are underestimated, so the response is about right or too high, meaning sensitivity is actually low. These to qoutes are quite illuminating:

&quot;“When the climate kicks back out of this state, we’ll have explosive warming,” Swanson said. “Thirty years of greenhouse gas radiative forcing will still be there and then bang, the warming will return and be very aggressive.”&quot; From the article in Discovery

&quot;“We realized a lot of changes in the past century from warmer to cooler and then back to warmer were all natural,&quot; Tsonis said. “I don&#039;t think we can say much about what the humans are doing,” he added.&quot; From a local paper in Wisconsin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Knowing what I do about the authors of that study&#8217;s statements to the press about their recent research, I would bet that the point which Romm wishes to emphasize was put in there by Swanson. It&#8217;s an obligatory nod to Catastrophic AGW where none is really appropriate. They are saying that &#8220;Yes, natural variability is greater than we thought, but even though this calls attribution studies into question, it is possible that natural variability did not cause the warming but instead hid it from view, meaning sensitivity is greater than we thought, and things are worse than we thought&#8221;-a technically true statement, but misleading, because it is actually more likely that the ~opposite~ is true-that natural variability has exaggerated the warming, thus creating the illusion of a climate system which is highly sensitive to Anthropogenic forcing. Plus, they are assuming that the natural variability ~response~ is larger than expect from a &#8220;known&#8221; level of natural &#8220;forcing&#8221;-when it could really easily be the opposite-the natural forcings are underestimated, so the response is about right or too high, meaning sensitivity is actually low. These to qoutes are quite illuminating:</p>
<p>&#8220;“When the climate kicks back out of this state, we’ll have explosive warming,” Swanson said. “Thirty years of greenhouse gas radiative forcing will still be there and then bang, the warming will return and be very aggressive.”&#8221; From the article in Discovery</p>
<p>&#8220;“We realized a lot of changes in the past century from warmer to cooler and then back to warmer were all natural,&#8221; Tsonis said. “I don&#8217;t think we can say much about what the humans are doing,” he added.&#8221; From a local paper in Wisconsin.</p>
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